Youth Group?

Here is a conversation I have been having with Melonie's old youth pastor over facebook:

Youth Pastor:
We are so bad at this!
First thing to address this time is that Foursquare has a polity and doctrine for how a specific church is to be run, but that specific pastor then runs his church the way he/she feels. The key word is "feels." Feelings change, doctrine doesn't.

Just to throw one at you before I go further, Mister Calvin (I say in all love!), what is your stance on the unpardonable sin? And another inherent question then arises, can a person lose their salvation? Please answer these based on your studies!

Okay, back to denoms. Our is pretty interesting as a whole because at one time, various other churches from other denoms actually began calling themselves Foursquare. The reason being was back in the 1920's and 1930's, the four tenants of the "Foursquare gospel" became popular with methodist and baptist and others that really did not have strong denom ties! BTW: Savior, Baptizer, Healer, Soon and Coming King were/are the four. So, even though we have refined the large folders of Foursquare theology since that time, churches tend to follow their pastor's leanings. I have actually noticed that some denoms focus on mercy and are packed with ministers who are ultra-laid back. Some have righteousness and justice as their themes and are crammed with conservative uptight (usually) men. I think the last group seems to be fairly even keel, balanced, and find grace and holiness as the byproducts.

Now for the Youth Pastor thing: Not there, doesn't mean it is unbiblical, but not in the Word! The need is there in my opinion as our culture shifted in the 1950's for the first time in history. There had never been to that point discretionary income. Yes, there were some royals and aristocrats throughout history who had rich kids, but America changed everything with the word "teenager." We started a worldwide trend that keeps permeating. Kids were not expected, in general, to have jobs. They were expected to get educated through 12th grade! So, unfortunately in some regards, the church responded to a perceived need and has been doing so ever since (i.e Singles, College, parachurch, etc...) Call it marketing, but the reality of when you start a nursery at your church, then you have moved away from the first century model.

I choose to end here due to time restraints.

Love ya,
In His Cross,
Scott

Me:
Mister Calvin, ha ha yeah I take it in love. I would be honored to be called Mister Calvin. : ) What is my stance on the unpardonable sin? I would have to say, it's unpardonable. What is my stance on loosing salvation? I would have to say, no, it's not possible to loose ones salvation. Even, if we think on this, using different words to describe salvation. I want to speak of "eternal life" (John 17:3). Can someone loose eternal life? Well if it is truly "eternal" then it can not be lost…if it was lost then was it "eternal"? I would have to say no. Now I can bring in some Bible verses if you would like, I'll just throw a few out there and let it be.(John 6:37-39, Phil. 1:6, 2 Tim. 4:18) What are your thoughts on these two questions?

I would agree that just because it's not in the Bible does not mean it's unbiblical, this is true. However, tell me your thoughts about this. There is nothing that says "no youth pastors or yes youth pastors" but there is something that says "Fathers train your children." So this is my thought, whatever we do, can not over ride what is in the Bible. What the role should really be doing, is helping what is already written in the Bible. Does that make sense? Because I see you say there is a "need" for it, but I might disagree with that. Let me put it in another light. If people in the congregation are not tithing, do we start a ministry to help them start tithing? Nope, we preach the Word and teach them why to tithe. Same here, if fathers are not training their Children, should we start a ministry for that? Nope, preach the Word on what parents role is and how to do it. I have more concerns then just that, but we can stop there.

: )

Thoughts?

Tim.
Reformata.

Youth Pastor:
So what does that do for the child whose parents, or in this case, fathers are not Christ-followers? It would be irresponsible for the church to overlook these orphans when the Word tells us that GOD puts the lonely into families. As a father, I treat my children as my responsibility to raise. As a youth pastor, I treat my youth as a father should or can to the extent that is possible. It is so easy to make cut and dry statements about church, but ministry is done in the real world! I stood in the prayer gap, and to some degree, the parenting gap for your girlfriend at one time in her life where no father was anywhere to be found. So was I wrong for doing this? Was the church wrong for funding it?

Regarding the teaching of tithing, many churches have used ministries, such as Financial Peace University and Crown, to teach sound, biblical money management. Many pastors use professional lessons to encourage their congregations to learn. There has to be an awareness of your own strengths as a leader and also that many of your congregants are at varying levels of maturity. Yes, you teach tithing and provide a godly example. You also use tools beyond your own abilities. I am amazed at how many people won't use "canned" sermons or curriculum. Jesus taught us relational outreach and too many pastors place pride in their own talents and spend all their time preparing to minister and not being with their flock. That is where real value comes in!

Lastly, some thoughts on the unpardonable sin. How much of your belief system (and I am not openingly disagreeing with you!) on this issue is based on how you want to believe. Mnay Christians I know want to feel like their family members are in Heaven because they said a prayer at some event or holiday service. When I look at what Jesus says in the Parable of the Sower and the Seed, I am struck with the question or the various soils and the fruit of the harvest. Does unpardonable mean that they head confessed (no heart change) but knew the truth in knowledge, but still decided to live a life of unrepentant? Just what I'm walking through...

Love ya,
In His Cross,
Scott

Me:
ah I was no not speaking against Financial Peace University at all. I like Dave Ramsey. But Dave's ministry does not tithe for the people. It teaches them how to tithe and this is right and well. Praise the Lord for Him and his ministry, but I would say that is different then a youth group. Why? Because youth groups, are in some ways filling the role of a spiritual leader...Mr. Ramsey is not filling the role as a tither for the people. Does that make more sense?

And it's a good question, what to do with Christian youth who do not have Christian parents? What then? What will they do with out a youth group or youth pastor? Well I would love to speak to that. It's a great question!

My first suggestion is as follows: First and for most they can sit under Sunday Service preaching of the Word. The Pastor should be continually expositing the text in lay mans terms for young foke to understand. Now does that mean they will understand everything? Nope, but they have to start some where. So that is suggestion one.

Suggestion two is this: Families in the church take the Children in and are trained in a house hold setting underneath the farther of the house hold. Will the teenager live in the house...no. But maybe on Sunday after church he will come over, maybe during the week he will come visit the family and be trained by that father in their house. If the young people can come to youth group once a week, then they can come to a families house once or twice a week. That way he is not trained in a youth group surrounded and influenced primarily by youth, but is in family setting influenced mostly by Godly parents. Proverbs does not speak very highly about the wisdom of youth. With that said, if we are going to surround our young people with a group of people, I would suggest parents or adults over other youth. Lets take you in Melonie's life for example. Do I think it was wrong for you and the church? I don't know. But I would say it could have been done better. What if, instead of her coming to youth group, she would have came to your house twice a week? How much more could you have trained her, developed her, poured into and been there for her? You said "As a youth pastor, I treat my youth as a father should or can to the extent that is possible." Would you agree, you can play more of a father role to a youth in your house, with your wife there then to an entire youth group? That’s what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that each family in the church makes disciples, the Church as a whole comes together to raise the youth.

Hmm how much of it is based on "how I want to believe."? Zero. It's all based on what the Bible says. I know that many of my friends, right now are probably going to hell. Did they say a prayer? Yes. Did they grow up going to church? Yes. Did they cry at an alter call? Yes, some of them. But the life style they live of un-repentance to, sex and alcohol is not the life of a Christian. That's no different then the World. They have no fruit of the spirit in their life at all. So, I would say, its based on scripture, and those saints what are saved will make it to the end.

Wow I wrote a lot. Lol
Great conversation though! I enjoy this.

Tim.

Reformata.

and I'm waiting for his response.
: )

tim.
reformata.